August 13, 2011 at 1:21 am #107003
caperMemberAugust 13, 2011 at 1:21 amPost count: 179
AgumentativeOne: “what would be the point of taking them if they were not effective or unnecessary?”
Many drugs are unnecessary yet people still take them because they provide some (perceived or real) benefit.
I have a headache. Would you say it’s necessary to take a tylenol?
My daugher gets an ear infection. Is it necessary to take an antibiotic?
Your writing shows you have at least an average IQ, and I’m going to suppose you are not a psychopath. I don’t think any normal person would suggest as you are that people should have to take drugs unless they can show that they function the way you or someone else wants without them.
So that leads me to the conclusion that you are playing devil’s advocate because you enjoy the debate for it’s own sake. And I took the bait. Touché!REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 1:33 am #107004
memzakMemberAugust 13, 2011 at 1:33 amPost count: 128
This has been an amazing discussion!
Years ago I read a science fiction book about a society where there were no children. People got old and when they decided they were old enough they would choose memories they wanted to keep and then went into this machine to die. Couples would decide to have “kids” and people were “born” as adults with the memories and experiences they chose to keep from their previous life and they just started again. Every 100 years or so the machine that made the bodies and inserted the memories would spit out a unique individual with no prior memories, a “new” personality. They had the basics, of course, but no prior experiences. They story continued with one of these unique individuals being “born” and seeing how messed up things had become and this individual set everything straight again. It has been a long time since I read this story but I think they went back to having kids.
The point I am trying to make is that ADHD has always been around but it has just been in the last 60 to 100 years that individuals, now being diagnosed as having ADHD, have had more of a struggle in our increasing homogenous society. If one does not fit into the pigeon holes then they are deemed a failure. Kids are increasingly confined. Can you imagine “Fidgety Phil” having any problems roaming fields and streams chasing frogs, catching fish, being free to be as fidgety as he wants to be where no one is around to criticize?
We need to remember that we are the “new” personalities, not by choice, and we are here to “mess” up society and point out that we as humans are all different and we do not all fit in the predefined pigeon holes. As I grow older, I have been increasingly disturbed by the youth culture and the attitudes of corporations and HR departments and I come from the generation where you didn’t trust anyone over 30! One has to be young and perfect to fit in. If you are different in any way then you are rejected. The older I get the faster I lose jobs and contacts because of my “uniqueness”.
Picking over the fine points of what is and is not ADD is pointless. Confrontation is stimulating so we gravitate towards it. We as a group tend to misunderstand things so confrontation is inevitable. Medication for most of us is a necessary evil whether prescribed or not. As to what our individual symptoms are we only need to worry about how to deal with the ones that trip us up and use our strengths to the fullest. A positive mindset always helps when determining strengths. If you need medication to achieve the positive mindset, so be it.
Argumentativeone we seem to agree on many things especially the cause and effect. Rick has a video he did on cause and effect. http://totallyadd.com/cause-and-effect
As for what I am doing about my situation, since the traffic ticket/Sudafed incident I bought some Sudafed and finally got rid of my sinus headaches. It also has turned around my attitude. Hell of a lot cheaper than prescriptions. I’m stopping here on this post before I take up a whole page, it’s already too long. Personally, I’ve decided to let the experts figure out the finer points and just deal with my personal issues and see if my experiences can help anyone else and visa versa.REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 2:19 am #107005
BibliophileMemberAugust 13, 2011 at 2:19 amPost count: 169
@caper you don’t understand what I am writing at all. I am saying that ADHD sufferers should only take the meds if they help and if they want to. There is no compulsion to do so. If they are self destructive without them that is their own choice to make. Honestly, I don’t care one iota whether you take meds or not. If you drive better with meds than I think it would be safer for all if you took them, but it is not up to me or anyone other than yourself to compel yourself to do so.
I also resent the comment about IQ. I made no such comments about anyone else’s intellect.
@memzak thanks for the sane comment.REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 2:15 pm #107006
AnonymousInactiveAugust 13, 2011 at 2:15 pmPost count: 14413
@admin can we remove Barkleys email address? He’s gonna get spammed.
On the point, science is the belief in ignorance of experts. We don’t learn new things by taking received wisdom for gospel. The fact that there is no peer reviewed scientific study that analyzes the benefits of ADD literally proves nothing. There is also no scientific study that proves add has no benefit. We could talk all day about what scientists haven’t studied and it would get us nowhere. It’s no surprise that scientists have studied the harm first. You put out the fire before you mow the lawn.
Arg1, the difference between hearing loss and the traits we’re talking about us that normal people also suffer from hearing loss in the same way. There’s no statistical or logical connection between ADD and hearing loss. There is, however, a logical connection between quarterbacking, being athletic, thinking outside the box and all the other positives and Add.
A lack of dopamine means you can remain more calm in a crisis, when everyone else is losing it.
Hyperactivity can mean high energy that can be focused.
No inhibition means your thoughts are not restricted to the norm.
If everyone could do these things, we would be no different. If everyone thought outside the box, there would be no box.REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 2:50 pm #107007
TiddlerMemberAugust 13, 2011 at 2:50 pmPost count: 802
Interesting post about Dr Barkley, Caper. But I disagree. Saying there is nothing positive about having ADHD doesn’t suggest or imply that medication is the only answer. Doesn’t it just suggest that he has seen the devastating effects of the condition and doesn’t want a debate about it being a ‘gift’ to detract from the very real need for more research, more acceptance and more treatment options?
Either it’s a gift or it’s a disability. I think there’s a difference between accepting it, and accepting yourself with it, and thinking it’s been a positive influence on someone’s life. If it’s a positive influence on people then do we need to treat it, get help for it or have counselling to cope with the fall out.
I don’t even think ‘giftedness’ is a gift. I think there is the positive side of it, which is high learning potential, but there are all the other behaviours and problems associated with it that look like ADHD, asperger’s, OCD, ODD and so on that make it obvious to me that even being ‘gifted’ comes with a price.
So I think it’s really important to accept ADHD as a disability, because without that acceptance I feel that we’ll just keep being told to try harder.REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 4:51 pm #107008
AnonymousInactiveAugust 13, 2011 at 4:51 pmPost count: 14413
@tiddler: I don’t think it’s that black or white. I look at it like height or even skin color. There’s nothing wrong with being 6’9″, but there are pluses and minuses. There’s also nothing wrong with being 4’8″. But depending on environment, support and other innate characteristics, it can be a bonus or a nightmare.
If you want to be fighter pilot, 6’2″ is the limit because of how the planes are built. if you want to be a basketball player, 6’2″ is a challenge. If everyone in the world was 6’5″, none if this would be an issue. And if everyone had the same dopamine levels, none of our issues would matter. It would either be an ADD world or a “normal” bureaucratic one.REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 5:51 pm #107009
caperMemberAugust 13, 2011 at 5:51 pmPost count: 179
Tiddler: you could be right, but I think you can see how some people might interpret his statements as meaning there is no benefit to refusing medication (ignoring side-effects). Just look at Wgreen & argumentativeone’s posts.
The easy way to avoid a teacher or parent using his expert opinion as a way to force medication would be for Barkley to temper his statement to say, “ADD is a serious disorder that causes real, proven problems for people & no one should be denied medication on the basis of other people that say it is a gift”.REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 8:05 pm #107010
AnonymousInactiveAugust 13, 2011 at 8:05 pmPost count: 14413
I don’t trust absolutes such as “nothing” “always” and “never”. I believe life exists somewhere within the gray area.REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 8:19 pm #107011
memzakMemberAugust 13, 2011 at 8:19 pmPost count: 128
@sugargremlin I agree with you about the absolutes.
@P-P wgreen can edt the comment he made and remove the email address if he so chooses. If you wnat to send a request to have it removed you need to send feedback to alert admin.REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 9:02 pm #107012
WgreenParticipantAugust 13, 2011 at 9:02 pmPost count: 445
Still looking for a second opinion. Does anybody know anything about this guy: Thomas Brown at Yale? Somebody told me he is very highly regarded—Asst. Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at the Yale University School of Medicine and Associate Director of the Yale Clinic for Attention and Related Disorders. Anybody know his views on gift v. curse? I know he’s written a book for laymen.REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 9:32 pm #107013
Shadow NexusMemberAugust 13, 2011 at 9:32 pmPost count: 181
>I would add this: show me an HR department these days that would touch a loudmouth contrarian and I’ll show you a flying saucer. HR has become a synonym for groupthink…which is why I suspect ADDers looking for work may be better served applying for positions at companies too small to have fossilized cultures.
My comedy involves the involves the whole job process. From applying to interviews to being in a job. It shows how silly and outright moronic it is. The first time I talked to job placement at my community college, we talked at length. When they told me that 88% of getting a job is your appearance and body language, I looked at them like they were insane and my mouth dropped to the floor. That only 5% is about your skills. WHAT?? THAT MAKES NO SENSE! For the first few years, I ignored this insanity till realized they were serious. I talked to someone at a job club about this insanity. I used a very simple argument:
Someone with an advanced degree, large amount of experience, and great references wearing shorts and a tee shirt(office), goes into an office. Some with a degree and some experience wearing a suit and tie, goes into an office. Both interview for the job. Logic is very clear who gets the job: advanced degree person. In the fantasy irrational world of job interviewing, the person with the suit and tie gets the job.
The guy i’m talking to tries to justify hiring the suit with the lame BS reasoning. They said, “I was using (insert name) logic.” I said, “No that’s logic!”.
It gets even more insane. “Don’t touch or scratch your face during interview.” I go, “huh? (pause) Personal habits??” I think. Umm, everybody does it. Why i’m worrying about something so trivial? Interviewers will dismiss you from the pool based on that?? WHAT!
If move around in the chair(figit) during the interview, they think you have too much energy. HUH?? Too much energy is what you want in the job! They have lots of energy to things done.
You get blamed for being unemployed. There is something wrong with you. I won’t bother to deconstruct those absurd statements.
LOGIC! There’s a word of great energy and power. Which these apes know nothing about. I come to one conclusion. Companies don’t want real people, they want Star Trek Borg – TM, commonly known as corporate drones.
Most people(lemmings/drones) are considered normal for being irrational. I’m the rational one and people look at me weird. What is wrong with this picture? To interviewers, I said two things:
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?
WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKIN’?
In the comedy routine I made, this gets lots of laughs from friends. I’ll be going to Los Angeles to audition at a club soon. Wish me luck…REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 9:43 pm #107014
WgreenParticipantAugust 13, 2011 at 9:43 pmPost count: 445
Yeah, Pete, you’re right. I should have deleted Dr. Barkley’s coordinates. I just cut and pasted the whole thing. Unfortunately, after an hour or so has passed, the forum software won’t let me “alter or amend” my comment/post. Oops.
On the merits of Barkley’s research: I don’t believe he’s said there’s “no peer-reviewed scientific study that analyzes the benefits of ADD.” I believe he has stated that there HAS BEEN (considerable) research that has looked for benefits and found them lacking—if not explicitly in his statement above, then certainly in his other published material. This is the “gospel” he preaches. Now, many of you may disagree, but he claims to have voluminous research on his side. That’s why I wish somebody better qualified than we would weigh in on this—to confirm or challenge.
All of our notions are based on personal experience or anecdotal evidence. But that has its obvious limits. I think it’s always interesting to see what other ADDers think about this, that, and the other. But I was hoping we could get some heavy hitters to weigh in on this particular subject. I’m not trying to change anybody’s mind—that, I suspect, would be a fool’s errand. I’m just interested in what the experts have to say. I admit I find Dr. Barkley’s opinions to be very compelling, but that doesn’t mean I don’t also find those opinions to be extremely disturbing.REPORT ABUSEAugust 13, 2011 at 10:35 pm #107015
AnonymousInactiveAugust 13, 2011 at 10:35 pmPost count: 14413
@Filmbuff1984: Have you been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against Xur and the Ko-Dan armada?!? I loved that movie.
@wgreen: I would love to see any study that says there is no benefit to ADHD. It’s awfully difficult to prove a negative, and there is no reason for (and therefore no financial incentive to fund) such a study. Barkely has consistently said the contrapositive: he believes there is no benefit because there are no studies that show a benefit. That’s not very useful. There’s also no study showing the benefits of being tall (or short), but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any. (the peer-review stuff is just me being a tool. All scientific studies are peer reviewed).
To be clear, I am not saying ADHD is a gift. It’s no more a gift then height or blue eyes. It’s just a different kind of normal. But it’s a way of thinking and being that is not compatible with modern life. As such, it is a literal “dis-order” and no one should minimize its impact of those with the condition. It can be debilitating and dangerous, and it often comes with comorbidities that make it even harder to deal with society. I agree with Barkley there, where I disagree is when he says there is no benefit and all it is is an albatross around our necks. I choose not to believe something so negative and depressing.REPORT ABUSEAugust 14, 2011 at 12:28 am #107016
WgreenParticipantAugust 14, 2011 at 12:28 amPost count: 445
Pete, all of us can choose to believe whatever we want for whatever reason we want. I wish I could find evidence that would allow me to share your views. I really do. All I can say is, “Good Luck!”REPORT ABUSEAugust 14, 2011 at 12:35 am #107017
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